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	<title>Comments on: Baby Selling</title>
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		<title>By: teageegeepea</title>
		<link>http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/baby-selling/#comment-402</link>
		<dc:creator>teageegeepea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;Certainly, were I in Nazi Germany, I’d rather have died a thousand times trying to save a single family, even futilely, than to have lived through it in comfort, knowing that family was going to the gas chambers.&lt;/i&gt;
I take it you are not a utilitarian then, is that correct?

&lt;i&gt;Your examples weren’t a moral test, they were tests of how much an opinion is worth.&lt;/i&gt;
It was not an opinion itself that was tested, but individuals. Watson claimed that he held a principle that might be summarized as &quot;truth, though the heavens may fall around me&quot;. By his standards he failed. There have also been numerous psych studies showing that people will bow to pressure and do things they claim they would never do. That is why I do not put much weight on your claims.

&lt;i&gt;that it’s better to be among those imprisoned should you find yourself in a holocaust&lt;/i&gt;
I&#039;m not sure exactly what you intended to mean by this. That a person arrested for theft is morally superior than one who is not arrested at all conditioned on a holocaust occurring? What good does the imprisonment do?

&lt;i&gt;You have none, bully for you.&lt;/i&gt;
To fully explain myself I would have to direct you to the theory of emotivism promoted by the logical positivists and Der Ego und es Eigenum by Max Stirner. There are things I like and dislike, but no fixed idea I serve.

&lt;i&gt;Historically, I’ve found the stoics to be more worthy of respect than the sophists.&lt;/i&gt;
I am a big fan of the writings of Stoics like Marcus Aurelius, but I do not think there are any of the ancient sophists, just what their enemies said of their views. I don&#039;t think that&#039;s a reliable record.

&lt;i&gt;They also tend to influence history more&lt;/i&gt;
Cite?

&lt;i&gt;being that they do more than argue online seeking validation.&lt;/i&gt;
Why are you arguing online and what do you do offline?

&lt;i&gt;I’d rather my daughter learn that honorable death is better than an unexamined life.&lt;/i&gt;
That reminds me of &lt;a href=&quot;http://hooverhog.typepad.com/hognotes/2007/07/initial-harm-pa.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Chip Smith on Andrea Yates&lt;/a&gt;. Would you consider it a good thing to kill a child if their death was noble and the alternative was an unexamined life?

&lt;i&gt;You don’t have the air of someone who enjoys discussion because it gives an opportunity to learn or share&lt;/i&gt;
I think &quot;the air&quot; is easily detectable over the internet. I honestly consider myself just that kind of person.

&lt;i&gt;but rather to dominate others&lt;/i&gt;
Have I dominated others anywhere? And half-cocked assumptions don&#039;t strike me as an effective method of domination.

&lt;i&gt;about who they are and what they value&lt;/i&gt;
I question so we can learn, in the mold of Socrates. I don&#039;t expect that all questioning will be found comforting, but I think the learning and sharing is more important than comfort.

&lt;i&gt;You place no intrinsic value on the attempt to save Ann Frank, because it was unsuccessful.&lt;/i&gt;
Correct, I am not a deontologist but a consequentialist. Of course, one should distinguish between post-facto results and expected results in evaluating decisions, but I am evaluating the event itself rather than the decisions that led to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Certainly, were I in Nazi Germany, I’d rather have died a thousand times trying to save a single family, even futilely, than to have lived through it in comfort, knowing that family was going to the gas chambers.</i><br />
I take it you are not a utilitarian then, is that correct?</p>
<p><i>Your examples weren’t a moral test, they were tests of how much an opinion is worth.</i><br />
It was not an opinion itself that was tested, but individuals. Watson claimed that he held a principle that might be summarized as &#8220;truth, though the heavens may fall around me&#8221;. By his standards he failed. There have also been numerous psych studies showing that people will bow to pressure and do things they claim they would never do. That is why I do not put much weight on your claims.</p>
<p><i>that it’s better to be among those imprisoned should you find yourself in a holocaust</i><br />
I&#8217;m not sure exactly what you intended to mean by this. That a person arrested for theft is morally superior than one who is not arrested at all conditioned on a holocaust occurring? What good does the imprisonment do?</p>
<p><i>You have none, bully for you.</i><br />
To fully explain myself I would have to direct you to the theory of emotivism promoted by the logical positivists and Der Ego und es Eigenum by Max Stirner. There are things I like and dislike, but no fixed idea I serve.</p>
<p><i>Historically, I’ve found the stoics to be more worthy of respect than the sophists.</i><br />
I am a big fan of the writings of Stoics like Marcus Aurelius, but I do not think there are any of the ancient sophists, just what their enemies said of their views. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s a reliable record.</p>
<p><i>They also tend to influence history more</i><br />
Cite?</p>
<p><i>being that they do more than argue online seeking validation.</i><br />
Why are you arguing online and what do you do offline?</p>
<p><i>I’d rather my daughter learn that honorable death is better than an unexamined life.</i><br />
That reminds me of <a href="http://hooverhog.typepad.com/hognotes/2007/07/initial-harm-pa.html" rel="nofollow">Chip Smith on Andrea Yates</a>. Would you consider it a good thing to kill a child if their death was noble and the alternative was an unexamined life?</p>
<p><i>You don’t have the air of someone who enjoys discussion because it gives an opportunity to learn or share</i><br />
I think &#8220;the air&#8221; is easily detectable over the internet. I honestly consider myself just that kind of person.</p>
<p><i>but rather to dominate others</i><br />
Have I dominated others anywhere? And half-cocked assumptions don&#8217;t strike me as an effective method of domination.</p>
<p><i>about who they are and what they value</i><br />
I question so we can learn, in the mold of Socrates. I don&#8217;t expect that all questioning will be found comforting, but I think the learning and sharing is more important than comfort.</p>
<p><i>You place no intrinsic value on the attempt to save Ann Frank, because it was unsuccessful.</i><br />
Correct, I am not a deontologist but a consequentialist. Of course, one should distinguish between post-facto results and expected results in evaluating decisions, but I am evaluating the event itself rather than the decisions that led to it.</p>
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		<title>By: DaCracka</title>
		<link>http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/baby-selling/#comment-386</link>
		<dc:creator>DaCracka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 04:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/12/08/baby-selling/#comment-386</guid>
		<description>I speak often in turns of phrases. The &quot;once great nation&quot; was more a poetic liberty than an opinion on history. I believe Ann Frank was protected long enough to write a diary, that exists as a record of a time when most records were destroyed. That&#039;s a plus, in my humble opinion. Certainly, were I in Nazi Germany, I&#039;d rather have died a thousand times trying to save a single family, even futilely, than to have lived through it in comfort, knowing that family was going to the gas chambers. 

A moral code means nothing without tests. Your examples weren&#039;t a moral test, they were tests of how much an opinion is worth. Not much. I don&#039;t hold my opinions very high on things in need of defending, either. They are what they are, and they&#039;re subject to change. My moral code, (that it&#039;s better to be among those imprisoned should you find yourself in a holocaust,) is not up for debate. 

You have none, bully for you. Which is much of the reason I don&#039;t hold you in high esteem. Historically, I&#039;ve found the stoics to be more worthy of respect than the sophists. They also tend to influence history more, being that they do more than argue online seeking validation.

You&#039;re right though, I can&#039;t say I would have the courage to risk my own family for the sake of another, because I haven&#039;t been in that position. But death is inevitable. The life you leave behind is more important to me. I&#039;d rather my daughter learn that honorable death is better than an unexamined life. 

I have no illusions that I&#039;m going to change your mind. You don&#039;t have the air of someone who enjoys discussion because it gives an opportunity to learn or share, but rather to dominate others with half-cocked assumptions about who they are and what they value. You place no intrinsic value on the attempt to save Ann Frank, because it was unsuccessful.

I disagree, and pray I never have the opportunity to prove it. 

Here&#039;s to those who try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I speak often in turns of phrases. The &#8220;once great nation&#8221; was more a poetic liberty than an opinion on history. I believe Ann Frank was protected long enough to write a diary, that exists as a record of a time when most records were destroyed. That&#8217;s a plus, in my humble opinion. Certainly, were I in Nazi Germany, I&#8217;d rather have died a thousand times trying to save a single family, even futilely, than to have lived through it in comfort, knowing that family was going to the gas chambers. </p>
<p>A moral code means nothing without tests. Your examples weren&#8217;t a moral test, they were tests of how much an opinion is worth. Not much. I don&#8217;t hold my opinions very high on things in need of defending, either. They are what they are, and they&#8217;re subject to change. My moral code, (that it&#8217;s better to be among those imprisoned should you find yourself in a holocaust,) is not up for debate. </p>
<p>You have none, bully for you. Which is much of the reason I don&#8217;t hold you in high esteem. Historically, I&#8217;ve found the stoics to be more worthy of respect than the sophists. They also tend to influence history more, being that they do more than argue online seeking validation.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right though, I can&#8217;t say I would have the courage to risk my own family for the sake of another, because I haven&#8217;t been in that position. But death is inevitable. The life you leave behind is more important to me. I&#8217;d rather my daughter learn that honorable death is better than an unexamined life. </p>
<p>I have no illusions that I&#8217;m going to change your mind. You don&#8217;t have the air of someone who enjoys discussion because it gives an opportunity to learn or share, but rather to dominate others with half-cocked assumptions about who they are and what they value. You place no intrinsic value on the attempt to save Ann Frank, because it was unsuccessful.</p>
<p>I disagree, and pray I never have the opportunity to prove it. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s to those who try.</p>
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