Walt & Mearsheimer’s book is actually rather boring and contains plenty of disclaimers. That’s likely the result of how much flak they caught for their original article, although I can’t say it did them any good (on the other hand, what should you expect?). I was expecting something more intentionally controversial, but I think they wanted to project a more sober and mainstream image. There is no discussion of “realist” theory at all, which is surprising as the authors are known for taking that approach to unusual lengths. It is also surprising because the thesis of the book goes against the core assumptions of realism, which they admit in their online reply to critics of their original London Review of Books article:
We concede that the phenomenon described in “The Israel Lobby” is not consistent with realism, but three comments are in order. First, no social science theory explains all phenomena; there are always important exceptions that must be explained on other grounds. Second, because realism portrays international politics as a competitive realm where mistakes are penalized, it implies states that are overly swayed by narrow interest groups are likely to undertake policies that turn out to be costly. Realism cannot explain the lobby’s impact, but it helps us understand its effects. Third, America’s enormous material power and favorable geopolitical position give it the latitude to act contrary to its interests, even though it would clearly be better off if it behaved differently. Thus, although realism does not include factors like domestic lobbies, it does help us understand some of the circumstances that give them greater influence. In any case, whether this particular article was consistent with all of our prior work is not the critical issue at hand, which is whether our claims about the lobby’s influence and its negative impact are correct.
I suppose they should be commended for admitting the limitations of their favored theory, but it would be preferable if they laid out in advance which situations are best analyzed from a realist perspective and which aren’t. I have to say that I agree that the relative immunity of the U.S due to its great power has led it to take stupid risks simply because it could afford to. This would suggest that Israel is more likely to act correctly according to its self-interest because it is in a more precarious situation. The U.S and Israel are both democracies, so perhaps we should expect distortion in the foreign policies of both countries.
I also note that in their reply they list among objections the existence of “plenty of countervailing centres of
power, such as paleoconservatives, Arab and Islamic advocacy groups… and the diplomatic establishment” as well as “the so-called oil lobby (either in the form of oil companies or wealthy Arab oil producers)”. In their book they only mention Arabs/Muslims and oil, in addition to the “military industrial complex”. No mention is made of Michael Neumann’s Victory and Recruitment, which gives a good debunking of many candidates. They rightly make no reference to paleos, because they are completely impotent. The “diplomatic establishment” sounds like something Mencius Moldbug would blame (as parodied here). James Q. Wilson might be a better man for that phenomenon than a realist.
One thing they changed my mind on was Israel’s position on the Iraq war. I had been persuaded by people who said years after the invasion that Israel opposed it because they feared it would empower Iran. The authors show that is a misrepresentation of the past and that while Israel initially was angling for action against Iran, once American neocons got the ball rolling against Iraq (which should indicate that they aren’t receiving instructions from Israel) Israel pushed that forward, with AIPAC being discreet but definite in its support for war. They failed to change my mind on Osama bin Laden’s motivations. Actions speak louder than words, and while plenty of terrorist groups attack Israel, al Qaeda has been absent. That they have attacked “moderate Arab” regimes and the United States supports the importance of their other grievances.
October 2, 2008 at 6:07 pm
i also found the book to be deadly boring. i plow through boring books but this one was just too much.
i’m curious to hear more about your thoughts on bin Laden’s motivations. will search your site for more info, but i don’t recall hearing a lot from you about bin Laden.
October 2, 2008 at 6:09 pm
ah…bin Laden is interested in regime change. that makes sense to me too.
keep up the good work!
October 2, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Bin Laden offered his services to the Saudis after Saddam invaded Kuwait. They rejected that in favor of the U.S, which stationed its soldiers (including *gasp* women) in the Holy Land. He deemed the ruling Arabs shirkers and said they should be overthrown. However, he also thinks they can’t defeat the “near enemy” unless they kick out the “far enemy”, although they still launch attacks on the Arab regimes. He also cited the sanctions put on Iraq as a major motivator.
October 2, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Disclaimers is right.
According to a review of the book in The Independent Review, Walt and Mearsheimer claim that any legal obstruction of the activities of AIPAC would be “clearly anti-semitic”, that Israel has a right to exist and that they – and granted this is rather flimsy – wish the state of Israel well.
Anyway, you read the book, so you can confirm this or not.
October 2, 2008 at 9:26 pm
They say the the U.S has a moral commitment to the existence of Israel and should act if that is threatened, but that its existence is not currently under any serious threat and so the U.S should treat it like a “normal country” rather than giving unconditional support.
Also, I’m going to be out of town for about three days. Feel free to comment, but realize that it could take me a while to respond.
October 2, 2008 at 11:02 pm
This sentence really set off my bullshit detector: “America’s enormous material power and favorable geopolitical position give it the latitude to act contrary to its interests, even though it would clearly be better off if it behaved differently. ”
Occam’s razor – is it more likely that a tiny, wealthy country of 6 million deliberately and purposefully controls a country of 350 million, forcing the country 70 times it’s size to act against it’s own interests, or is it more likely the other way around – the country of 350 million “protects” the country of 6 million to satisfy it’s own interests in the region? What are those interests? Oil, of course! By supporting Israel, the U.S. has a direct hand and permanent base in the region, justifying it’s meddling in all affairs – and because Israel has no one else to turn to, that gives the U.S. tremendous leverage, much greater than the U.S.’s leverage over Saudi Arabia. Is it any surprise the U.S. only stepped in to help Israel after Israel’s victories in the 6 Days and Yom Kippur Wars?
To draw a parallel – the Palestinians have no lobby to speak of, yet they’re receiving hundreds of millions of dollars a year in U.S. aid and billions in European aid. Could the existence or non-existence of a lobby be a red herring? Well, what does the U.S. get out of supporting the Palestinians?
The answer is evident by restating the question, as Mencius recently described: what PART of the U.S. gains? Progressives have a lot to gain domestically by defeating reactionary governments abroad: win elections, gain power. On the international front, it brings us all that much closer to One World Government, the end goal of Progressivism.
Israel is the last surviving pro-Western reactionary government in the entire world. Rhodesia and South Africa have fallen – look how poorly off they are today. Israel is reactionary by its very nature as a Jewish state, not by it’s politics, which are Progressive – Progressive right up to, but not crossing (at least so far) the point of suicide. At some point, and it doesn’t look too far off, Auster’s Unqualified Exception will no longer hold. IMO, we’re not far from Apocalypse.
October 2, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Thanks for the link to “Yes, yes,” said Joe Wilson, also present, spinning a globe slowly and smoking a Cuban cigar laced with fragrant yellowcake.” Outstanding.
I hypothesize that “the Professor” is the shade of Allen Bloom. Or perhaps he never really died, and is living under an assumed name, with plastic surgery and altered fingerprints courtesy of the Polygon.
Hmm, how clever they are.
October 2, 2008 at 11:53 pm
I linked to IOZ’s post a long while back, but not enough people visited it. Also, Bloom was a neocon, which makes him part of the Outer Party outside the Polygon according to MM.
m, read the book (or maybe the LRB paper, I haven’t read that), they explain how the U.S doesn’t gain anything from Israel. Simply being “pro-American” in your heart means little unless you do something for America in your actions, and Israel hasn’t been in a position to do that since the Cold War (though it might be once again if it settled its issues with the neighbors). Israel doesn’t “control” the U.S, Walt & Mearsheimer show how it has failed to get the U.S to do what it wants numerous times. There is simply a very powerful domestic lobby (very much like numerous other lobbies in D.C) dedicated to it.
Progressives do not win elections in the U.S on the backs of Palestinians. Progressives didn’t even win due to our embarassment in Vietnam, it resulted in the empowerment of the right and the belief that the Dems were soft on foreign policy. The aid given to the Palestinians is much less than is given to the Israelis and is not unconditional like theirs. It is more like the kind of aid described by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita, or a bribe to get them to behave the way we want them to (and in recent years to bolster Fatah against Hamas, which in turn used to be sponsored by Israel against Fatah). The U.S cuts off aid to many countries when they behave in a contrary manner, but not Israel. In order to motivate them we have to promise EXTRA aid, because Congress will guarantee a constant flow even if the President is opposed.
If you follow MM’s theory, than Israel is not the only country in the Red Empire. I recall Japan being a member as well. His bit about Palestine being “the Jewel of the Blue Empire” is laughable of course, as I showed with the survey of college faculty. Dems/liberals are not opponents of the Israel lobby, they are reliable allies.
October 3, 2008 at 12:11 am
“Progressives didn’t even win due to our embarassment in Vietnam, it resulted in the empowerment of the right and the belief that the Dems were soft on foreign policy.”
Can you link me?
“The aid given to the Palestinians is much less than is given to the Israelis and is not unconditional like theirs.”
What planet are you living on? Israel needs permission from the U.S. to attack Lebanon (length, manner, place, and extent), to invade or not to invade Gaza (when, where, how), to bomb Syrian nuclear facilities, to pursue or not pursue peace talks; it needs the U.S.’s permission to invade Iran. You think the aid is unconditional? Really???? Hell, Israel even needs U.S. permission to build settlements within Jerusalem!
“His bit about Palestine being “the Jewel of the Blue Empire” is laughable of course, as I showed with the survey of college faculty. Dems/liberals are not opponents of the Israel lobby, they are reliable allies.”
We can agree to disagree about this. Palestine is *certainly* the jewel of Europe, which is essentially purified Progressivism Blue Empire. It’s comparatively muddled down at home because the blue state conquered Europe, not the other way around….
October 3, 2008 at 1:38 am
“Also, Bloom was a neocon, . . . ”
Was he? Was he really? That’s the genius of it all.
October 3, 2008 at 9:33 am
Can you link me?
What, are you saying you want a hyperlink? A simple history lesson should suffice. Johnson goes into Vietnam, the Tet Offensive makes him look bad and he neglects to run again while the hippies/yippies get all excited. Does that empower the left? No, Nixon (the guy who lost to Johnson’s running mate) comes into office promising peace with honor. He reaches a deal with the Vietnamese and gets re-elected. Previously Truman had gone into Korea and reached a stalemate. Eisenhower promised peace and got elected, negotiated a deal with the Koreans (in much less time than Nixon) and got re-elected. Carter screwed up trying to rescue hostages in Iran, so Ronald Reagan got elected. Reagan said he wouldn’t back down in Lebanon but he did withdraw troops after the marine barracks was bombed. He was re-elected. Did victory in WW2 empower the right? No, Churchill was gone after he won and the incoming Labour party set about building the welfare state. Truman got re-elected.
Israel does not need the permission of the U.S, it repeatedly acts when the U.S tells it NOT to. Every President since Johnson has been opposed to settlements, but the Israelis have kept building them (and I’m talking West Bank/Gaza not just Jerusalem). The U.S does not cut aid to the Israelis in order to get them to do anything but promises EXTRA aid instead. I have never heard of the U.S stopping the Israelis from entering peace talks, but there have been plenty of times when the Israelis didn’t negotiate while the U.S wanted them to. If you read the book you’ll see them detail such incidents, and it’s pretty heavily documented.
October 3, 2008 at 10:54 am
U.S. gives Israel green light to invade Gaza (which Israel ultimately decided not to do):
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/124891
Another link:
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1329
Israel asked US for green light to bomb nuclear sites in Iran
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/25/iran.israelandthepalestinians1
“Ehud Olmert, the current Israeli prime minister, said this week that Bush’s letter gave the Jewish state permission to expand the West Bank settlements that it hopes to retain in a final peace deal, even though Bush’s peace plan officially calls for a freeze of Israeli settlements across Palestinian territories on the West Bank”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/23/AR2008042303128.html?nav%3Dhcmodule&sub=AR
U.S. Now Said to Support Growth For Some West Bank Settlements
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E5DF173EF932A1575BC0A9629C8B63
U.S. Policy Turnabout May Enable Israeli-Syrian Talks
http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=264
I could go on…I don’t have much time to respond to your “history lesson”, but I think it’s fair to say that Progressives have been successful in branding Vietnam as pointless and a mistake, and they’re on the same road to Iraq – regardless of any short term electoral victory for reactionaries.
October 3, 2008 at 2:57 pm
It wasn’t “Big Oil” who wanted the Iraq-war. Liberals always argue that, but they’re wrong. Read this piece by oilexpert Daniel Yergin:
http://tinyurl.com/3w4o4m
Dunno if W&M were right, but it wasn’t “Big Oil”. Maybe Bush really believes in his own delusions of spreading democracy to the Middle East. Blaming Iraq on Big Oil is pretty stupid.
October 3, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Ignore what I said earlier about leaving town, change of plans.
Vietnam is considered a pointless mistake because it fell to the communists without any serious harm to U.S national interests. You specifically said winning elections was the motivation of Progressives to lose wars, but it was Lyndon Johnson (of the Great Society and Civil Rights Acts) that got us in there and Nixon that got elected as a result. You call those elections “short term” but precisely because it follows closely after events in Vietnam it can be more accurately traced to Vietnam. Even if you wanted to look at ALL the years since Vietnam you’d see that the GOP has held the Presidency more often than they did in the equivalent number of years BEFORE Vietnam.
M&W’s book actually has a chapter on Syria and how the Bush admin was pushing Israel to enter into talks, presumably involving swapping the Golan Heights, but the lobby won out. In the full version of the article you linked to the U.S ambassador denies what is alleged, although it’s certainly possible he’s lying.
Even if Bush stopped complaining recently about some settlements, it is still the case that every President since Johnson has opposed them and asked the Israelis not to expand them. They have persistently done so anyway, in what the article you linked to refers to as “violations”. Those persistent violations have not caused the U.S to take any actions in response, such as cutting off aid. The U.S last displayed a backbone with regard to Israel with Suez.
November 13, 2008 at 11:09 pm
[...] the security of Israel as if he had merely forgotten it, giving no indication that she was aware of that book. She talks about the imperative of the new Obama administration to act “boldly” and how [...]