Comments on: Against Rothbard and Keynes, for Marx http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/ Everyone has a blog and they all stink Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:59:34 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Vichy http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3757 Vichy Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:44:24 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3757 Also, I read that Austrian Economists post earlier, that's basically what I thought. Also, I read that Austrian Economists post earlier, that’s basically what I thought.

]]> By: Vichy http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3756 Vichy Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:43:43 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3756 "Marx believed that the popular beliefs were themselves a product of the material structure of society." The thing is, the 'value-structure' is still subjective; what is a 'material productive force' depends on what you want to do. The influences of specific traditions, social norms, and of course the structure of the economy will all affect how people act; and the 'structure of the economy' is largely an outcome of people pursuing - perhaps often predictable, or typical - subjective desires based on their expectations of efficacy. If the 'material productive forces' were that strongly deterministic, laissez-faire capitalism would have smashed the competition. It hasn't because there are other things that determine what people see as valuable, many of which don't translate well into interpersonal exchange goods but strongly influence the structure around which these are produced and distributed. “Marx believed that the popular beliefs were themselves a product of the material structure of society.”
The thing is, the ‘value-structure’ is still subjective; what is a ‘material productive force’ depends on what you want to do. The influences of specific traditions, social norms, and of course the structure of the economy will all affect how people act; and the ’structure of the economy’ is largely an outcome of people pursuing – perhaps often predictable, or typical – subjective desires based on their expectations of efficacy. If the ‘material productive forces’ were that strongly deterministic, laissez-faire capitalism would have smashed the competition. It hasn’t because there are other things that determine what people see as valuable, many of which don’t translate well into interpersonal exchange goods but strongly influence the structure around which these are produced and distributed.

]]> By: teageegeepea http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3754 teageegeepea Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:04:28 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3754 I think the incentives are very closely tied to the material forces. An industrial society will have different incentives than an agricultural one will have different incenties than a hunter-gatherer one. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_and_superstructure_(Marxism)" rel="nofollow">Marx</a> believed that the popular beliefs were themselves a product of the material structure of society. I don't know if you came here from there or it's just a coincidence, but the Austrian Economists have a <a href="http://austrianeconomists.typepad.com/weblog/2009/06/this-sounds-about-right-macro-policy-is-more-or-less-determined-by-politics-rather-than-ideas.html" rel="nofollow">post</a> up now on the irrelevance of ideas. More support there for my position here. I think the incentives are very closely tied to the material forces. An industrial society will have different incentives than an agricultural one will have different incenties than a hunter-gatherer one. Marx believed that the popular beliefs were themselves a product of the material structure of society.

I don’t know if you came here from there or it’s just a coincidence, but the Austrian Economists have a post up now on the irrelevance of ideas. More support there for my position here.

]]> By: Vichy http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3751 Vichy Wed, 01 Jul 2009 22:03:19 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3751 It's not so much the material productive forces, as a complex web of incentives and popular beliefs which can feed across each other in very strange ways. I agree, ideas matter less than is predictably supposed by intellectuals. The average democrat, liberal or libertarian is a nitwit, almost in proportion to his fervor. What drives political institutions is a mixture of pecuniary, status and inhereted ideology - and by inhereted ideology I mean Vulgar Ideology. This is one of the main reasons activism is almost totally pointless, the people who actually control most of society's structure are biased and not interested in economics, much less higher philosophy. It’s not so much the material productive forces, as a complex web of incentives and popular beliefs which can feed across each other in very strange ways. I agree, ideas matter less than is predictably supposed by intellectuals. The average democrat, liberal or libertarian is a nitwit, almost in proportion to his fervor. What drives political institutions is a mixture of pecuniary, status and inhereted ideology – and by inhereted ideology I mean Vulgar Ideology.

This is one of the main reasons activism is almost totally pointless, the people who actually control most of society’s structure are biased and not interested in economics, much less higher philosophy.

]]> By: A pair of heresies « A Terrible Blogger is Born! http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3246 A pair of heresies « A Terrible Blogger is Born! Fri, 15 May 2009 21:06:14 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3246 [...] whether, outside of a few fringe figures, there is any genuine anti-war Left at all, and TGGP disses Rothbard’s and Keynes’s  (and also, though he is not mentioned, Hayek’s) view of [...] [...] whether, outside of a few fringe figures, there is any genuine anti-war Left at all, and TGGP disses Rothbard’s and Keynes’s  (and also, though he is not mentioned, Hayek’s) view of [...]

]]> By: Attack the System » Blog Archive » Updated News Digest May 10, 2009 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3228 Attack the System » Blog Archive » Updated News Digest May 10, 2009 Sat, 09 May 2009 19:41:33 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3228 [...] Against Rothbard and Keynes, for Marx by TGGP [...] [...] Against Rothbard and Keynes, for Marx by TGGP [...]

]]> By: teageegeepea http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3214 teageegeepea Tue, 05 May 2009 05:13:04 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3214 Yes. I'd also like to see more people ask whether there are other factors causing a shift in both expert consensus and policy and thereby giving the impression of causality. Yes. I’d also like to see more people ask whether there are other factors causing a shift in both expert consensus and policy and thereby giving the impression of causality.

]]> By: Isak http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3212 Isak Mon, 04 May 2009 06:14:17 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3212 Yeah, I don't think expert consensus is too influential either. I was just pointing out that that technically, Willkinson will always be right, since his statement basically boils down to "it is logically possible for an expert consensus to have an effect." Hard to argue with, though not very interesting. Yeah, I don’t think expert consensus is too influential either. I was just pointing out that that technically, Willkinson will always be right, since his statement basically boils down to “it is logically possible for an expert consensus to have an effect.” Hard to argue with, though not very interesting.

]]> By: teageegeepea http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3211 teageegeepea Mon, 04 May 2009 05:43:13 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3211 I suppose so. I guess I saved the link months ago and then relied on memory when I finally wrote this post. But on the other hand, we seem to persistently have stupid policies for a loooooong time. There's not many issues where I'm betting on the wonks against inertia. Maybe a Pigou gas tax, but that's not really scrapping an existing stupid policy so much as creating a new one (taxes on gas currently are for transportation costs and I believe they still would pay for that in addition). I suppose so. I guess I saved the link months ago and then relied on memory when I finally wrote this post. But on the other hand, we seem to persistently have stupid policies for a loooooong time. There’s not many issues where I’m betting on the wonks against inertia. Maybe a Pigou gas tax, but that’s not really scrapping an existing stupid policy so much as creating a new one (taxes on gas currently are for transportation costs and I believe they still would pay for that in addition).

]]> By: Isak http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/against-rothbard-and-keynes-for-marx/#comment-3209 Isak Mon, 04 May 2009 04:50:37 +0000 http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/?p=746#comment-3209 Hah. That claim is a little too qualitative and qualified to be worth much. Hah. That claim is a little too qualitative and qualified to be worth much.

]]>