I’m a bit late in pointing this out, but the New York Times has dipped its dainty foot into the scary waters of hbd. In the article they quote GNXP’s Jason Malloy (who has perhaps the best post on the Watson controversy here) as well as Half Sigma. Mencius Moldbug called it “epochal” and in the reaction at GNXP Godless Capitalist (aka gc, who had been AWOL for some time) agreed. I’m holding off on the champaign, as one demure NYT article does not a revolution in paradigms make. What I found interesting was how hopeless gc seemed in the comments here at 2Blowhards. His diagnosis was that the West was doomed, and advised those with foresight to “Go East, young man”. I’ve sometimes thought about that, but it was usually idle speculation and my imagined destination was generally another western country (Ireland, Australia, Switzerland if I can brush up on my German).
I’ve stated before that I feel no serious attachment to the west or white people and if it turns out that the Chinese/Indians take over and my (very extended) relations also disappear, I wouldn’t be too peeved as long as My New Asian Overlords are willing to give me a decent spot. I also wouldn’t care if after I died humanity was wiped out by an asteroid. Maybe if I was a father and pillar of some community rather than rootless cosmopolitan things would be different, but they aren’t. I am glad to have this rather dispassionate/apathetic outlook, because it allows more fruitful discussion and contemplation of ideas that I have seen others (figuratively) frothing at the mouth over. I would not say I am completely free of the mind-killers. Though I’m on the left tail of the empathy distribution, I must admit I found it difficult to read this by Idang Alibi from Nigeria (he has a follow-up here). Both the understanding that led to his despair for his country and the misunderstanding that gives him hope (yes, Virginia, religion is adaptive) bit into me. I’m glad I’m not in his position and, es tut mir leid, I wish he were not either. Clear-headed in the face of the bothersome is what I aspire to be though. I take inspiration from this review by Chip Smith of a compendium of writings by those the fearful imagine hbd-realists to be. Is there a smug sense of superiority in that detachment over someones’ fears of the worst thing he could possibly imagine? Sure. There are worse things than smugness though. I’d say self-righteous opponents of truth and free speech qualify, as do hate-filled disguised inferiority complexes.
A great many react to things we self-described “hbd-realists” say with anger, which is easy to ignore, but a number of others don’t bother denying the claims made while at the same time declining to climb aboard our bandwagon. They say “It’s true, but so what? You’ve just depressed us all and said there are no solutions”. Some question whether it is good if such acknowledgedly true ideas are spread, (Steve Sailer responds to that better than I or just about anybody I know could here). These people are usually minorities themselves who happen to be intelligent enough to realize that most of their co-ethnics are not going to be as fortunate as themselves any time soon (Razib and Godless could technically be considered to fall into this category as South Asians, but I think they identify near wholly with other educated Americans rather than the masses of Bangladesh or India, respectively). Telling them to stop caring about their extended relations is unlikely to be persuasive, if there’s one thing Sailer has striven to beat the drum on, it’s the importance of who your kin are and the promotion of loved one consciousness. While not on this specific subject, I think Robin Hanson gives a good case for why, whatever your cause is, truth should come first. He discusses picking a correct cause, but another important thing is that we will be better able to solve a problem if we have a more accurate perception of it. Without that unintended consequences abound.
Among the charges leveled by both the saddened and angry is that we take joy in news that brings them down. I think there is some confusion there. It is not so much a case of schadenfreude as relief. There is certainly a good bit of anger at those who insisted we were despicable, who ruined the careers of respected academics that were good liberals to boot, and on a less serious but informative level chose to dump buckets of water on their colleagues heads rather than hear them out. When we get notice that they may be having second thoughts and our despised contentions are being vindicated, of course we are more pleased than we would be otherwise. What we are not rejoicing in is the existence of a problem that admittedly bears the hardest on others (there are people do so, and we don’t like them either). We are not happy that obvious remedies will be ineffective, only that their ineffectiveness be recognized so that better ones may be sought. We recognized these things in the past, and it was not a pleasant realization, so of course our reaction will not be the same as those who are comparatively late in their acceptance.
I’d like to have something quasi-uplifting to say after ending on that note, but I can’t think of anything satisfactory. Perhaps next time.
Entitled to an Opinion 
November 12, 2007 at 3:37 am
You can move to Luxembourg! Most people (in America at least) don’t even know its a country.
They are still very “Old Europe” in many ways, but they’re trying hard to catch up to the times. You don’t have to learn German, but French comes in handy. It also helps if you like pork products and Seattle-ish weather.
The best thing though is that it truly is a melting pot, people are from everywhere.
November 12, 2007 at 4:41 am
No, Ireland! The weather is depressing [mist, clouds, blocked sun] but quaint, and it rarely snows [there are two seasons – spring and autumn]. Vitamin d supplements a necessity. Our Swiss-like prediliction for referenda has resulted votes clamping down on asylum seekers and non-EU immigrants, so that may not be a problem in the long run. Lots of tech jobs for guys like you too – google, ibm, microsoft, intel, all have european headquarters in dublin. We have an open border with 10 Eastern European countries as well, which has made finding an attractive wife for a young male infinitely easier.
November 12, 2007 at 5:52 am
I read GC’s comments, and I must say I have no idea where he’s coming from. Whatever the effects of PC, it didn’t stop America from creating and leading industries in physics, computers, software, etc. Now, GC says that biology is different, comes up right against PC taboos – he predicts a big funding cut for genetic research – I’d be interested to hear if he’s seen something specific about that, but otherwise I don’t see it. Americans respect the power of science (even if they don’t really understand it) and there are a lot of people on the educated left (like the anti-creationism crowd) who would not support it. And quiet awareness of IQ-related issues among scholars is growing and even ubiquitous in some areas – you read a lot of econblogs; how many of them _don’t_ know about the IQ-income relationship? Judging from the NY Times article, knowledge of population differences in gene frequencies also seems to be widespread among biologists.
Finally, I don’t believe this whole “the West is doomed” thing. Sure, there’s PC and an increase in immigration (though GC’s numbers are exaggerated) but even then – that’s not going to stop people from doing research, starting companies, and getting on with their lives. And if some other country is the first to genetic engineering – America has shown that it can react to external challenges quickly (e.g. Sputnik).
So when you find yourself wondering which country you’d like to move to, then ask yourself: what are the chances that general AI will be developed there, instead of in the USA? Same for life-extension, SENS, nanotech, etc.
November 12, 2007 at 10:41 am
I probably have a little more desire than you to see European civilization continue, but I’d agree that its end is by no means the worst thing I can imagine.
As long as I can live in a reasonably free, safe and technologically advanced country, I’ll be pretty happy. Only, I can’t decide between studying German, Japanese, or Mandarin as the best way to hedge my bet on the future of the “Anglosphere”.
November 12, 2007 at 12:30 pm
GC wrote quite a lot on that thread. Below I’ve picked out some segments that illustrate why he thinks the US is finished. Some importanat parts that I did not include had to do with the pitiful lack of opposition in the US to PC/Multicult/”Diversity” dogma. Even intrinsically conservative institutions like the military heartily endorse it.
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/11/watson_populati.html#004608
(…)
In addition to the admission of millions of illiterate migrant workers, the West has now admitted groups that are in some respects symbiotes, but that have now well and truly sabotaged its immune system and its nervous system. Not just the Ashkenazim, but the South and East Asians as well — my people. If the numbers were manageable that would be one thing; the symbiotes might eventually be integrated into the
host. But the numbers are not manageable. Everyone is now in the ethnic activism game, intent on suppressing the immune response and preventing frank discussion of truth.
“Ask not what you can do for your country, ask how the country can benefit your ethnic group”. Look at Racialicious or some of the posters on Sepia Mutiny for examples of this attitude; Racialicious in particular is written by a modern-day Torquemada.
Bottom line — like a man with a sabotaged immune system, the West can no longer make self/nonself
distinctions:
At the heart of the immune system is the ability to distinguish between self and nonself. Virtually every body cell carries distinctive molecules that identify it as self.
And like a man with a damaged nervous system, the West’s internal perceptions are out of sync with the external reality. Consider a hand on a hot stove. It does not matter if the lowly epithelial cells are burned by the million if the nerve cells refuse to communicate this truth to the seat of conscious action.
Similarly, the media is the nervous system of a civilization. The signals it chooses to amplify, dampen, or interpret control the response of the body. If paralyzed, it matters not if the body is hale and hearty and theoretically capable of action. A malfunctioning nervous system will leave an otherwise healthy body jerking around in response to phantasms of racism — or directing its efforts against its own cells.
(…)
And as America continues its descent into Mexico Norte, I will mourn the civilization that produced Bach and Beethoven and Shockley and Watson. It doesn’t matter if immigration is cut off; America is already screwed:
Stats Census statistics also show that 45 percent of children under age 5 are from a racial or ethnic minority.
Most of those of course are not Asian immigrants (though see my comments above re: symbiotes). When the proportion of blacks and Hispanics in an area reaches critical mass — and roughly 50\% is certainly critical mass — you start to see things like Salinas:
Beleaguered Salinas plans to close its libraries
(…)
It would also make Salinas the biggest city west of the Mississippi, and possibly in the United States, with no public library.
(…)
America is done for. Some European states may survive, but in 10 years approximately half of America’s high school grads will be black or Hispanic, even if immigration is stopped today. In 20 years that is going to be more than half of people under 30. That’s murder she wrote for American capitalism, entrepreneurialism, and technology. The name of the game will be racial Marxism and Salinas.
(…)
The reference that tc made to Sputnik was completely off the mark. The US in 1957 was 90% white, supremely self-confident(despite the brief Sputnik shock), and totally averse to self-flagellation and navel-gazing. There was that problem with what was then called “civil rights”, but it didn’t induce panic.No major black riots had yet occured and the great urban crime wave with accompanying “white flight” was still in the future.
November 12, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I did actually consider Luxembourg before, but didn’t mention it in this post.
cuchulainn, how do I know you’re not just one of those anti-immigrant Irish who wants to deceive me about how wonderful your country is in order to dissuade me from coming? And how did you know I was a “tech guy”?
Americans respect the power of science (even if they don’t really understand it) and there are a lot of people on the educated left (like the anti-creationism crowd) who would not support it.
Then why did respected liberals like Summers and Watson lose their jobs?
And quiet awareness of IQ-related issues among scholars is growing and even ubiquitous in some areas – you read a lot of econblogs; how many of them _don’t_ know about the IQ-income relationship?
I agree that economists seem to have a better than average grasp, but I think Tyler Cowen’s dismissal of “IQ and the Wealth of Nations” indicates how PC thinking can cloud the minds of people who should be able to understand.
that’s not going to stop people from doing research, starting companies, and getting on with their lives.
He discusses South Africa/Zimbabwe as a possible future. In those places there are what we would consider serious impediments to doing those things. I don’t think we’ll be there any time soon, but I can see such things happening to a limited extent.
America has shown that it can react to external challenges quickly (e.g. Sputnik)
One of the things he was trying to get at is that the America of the future could be significantly different from the America of the past.
So when you find yourself wondering which country you’d like to move to, then ask yourself: what are the chances that general AI will be developed there, instead of in the USA? Same for life-extension, SENS, nanotech, etc.
I don’t care much more whether those things are developed first in the country I live than the state I live, as long as they arrive in my locale in reasonable time.
Even intrinsically conservative institutions like the military heartily endorse it.
The military is actually quite harmonious because they screen people. They believe in testing, even if elite opinion-makers don’t.
November 12, 2007 at 2:56 pm
i dunno what you are. but on a long trawl through gnxp’s archives a while back i happened on a comment by razib where he said you scored 1400 or something on the SAT. he also said you were a virgin.
November 12, 2007 at 5:21 pm
It was a 1460 when I took the SAT, a 32 the first time I took the ACT and a 34 the second time, and when I took an online version of Raven’s Progressive Matrices I was a bit under +1 standard deviation. I don’t think that is sufficient to establish being a “tech guy”, I could well be a philosophy major (I think my verbal scores were higher than my math ones, though I can’t confidently recall), but it should shift your expectations toward the correct belief, which is that I chose to major in computer science instead of education or leisure studies.
November 12, 2007 at 5:53 pm
TGGP says:
Then why did respected liberals like Summers and Watson lose their jobs?
The leaders were sacked, but the project goes on. Americans are willing to pay for “sexy”-sounding science – CA passed a “stem cell” initiative a few years ago (though they likely don’t understand what it really does). Now, if (as GC seems to be predicting) we see, say, the HapMap defunded, then yeah, that would be a bad sign.
He discusses South Africa/Zimbabwe as a possible future. In those places there are what we would consider serious impediments to doing those things. I don’t think we’ll be there any time soon, but I can see such things happening to a limited extent.
In Zimbabwe there was outright confiscation of white-owned property – I can’t really see this happening in the USA. In SA there is massive affirmative action – perhaps it will make a comeback, although the popular trend has been away from this (Ward Connerly etc). And just as white flight was a response to busing, there is always the option of residential segregation – maybe there will be more Salinases, but they need not affect the San Joses of the country.
Even if PC endures, the number of Hispanics increase, etc – I don’t see why that will lead to “murder she wrote for American capitalism, entrepreneurialism, and technology” as GC put it. There are plenty of countries with ethnic groups that differ in productivity – Malaysia, Brazil – and while I wouldn’t call them successes, they still manage to produce, to innovate (e.g. Brazil has a world-class airplane industry). Certainly there will be increased social problems – inequality, ghettoes, residential segregation, the underclass, etc – which is a drag on the economy, maybe a big one – but it doesn’t negate the presence of the capitalists and technologists who were there before. Same for Europe and Muslim immigration – the Muslims may riot, but they’re not in positions of power or productivity. It’s not pretty, and I think it’s a good enough reason to limit immigration, but come on – it’s not the end of Bach and Beethoven etc.
One of the things he was trying to get at is that the America of the future could be significantly different from the America of the past.
Sure, there was no civil rights etc before, but what does that have to do with the business of building rockets? As long as the USA has the talent, resources, and the desire – then it can be done. expat says there was more self-confidence before – well, seems to me the Google guys, the X-Prize rocket seekers, the Craig Venters etc have plenty of confidence. Hell, even George W. Bush, ridiculous though his ideas may be, was not lacking in self-confidence. Suppose that China announces that they have engineered a human with higher IQ or whatever – PC or not, I don’t see the everyone in the US simply ignoring that.
I don’t care much more whether those things are developed first in the country I live than the state I live, as long as they arrive in my locale in reasonable time.
Sure. But if we’re talking about the death of civilizations and all that, I’d have to think that whoever builds AI first isn’t going to simply pass away in the night.
November 12, 2007 at 6:16 pm
“. . . it allows more fruitful discussion and contemplation of ideas that I have seen others (figuratively) frothing at the mouth over.”
I took note of the “(figuratively” because of your recent, ALL-CAPS comment elsewhere.
Of course, this is preferable to the factually inaccurate “literally.”
November 12, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Look, black sea, something like advocating mass murder is one thing but the way he used “literally” was just plain unacceptable. When I am king such types will be first against the wall.
November 13, 2007 at 6:07 am
Agreed.
Someone’s gotta enforce the rules, and it ain’t gonna be Strunk and White.
November 15, 2007 at 3:54 am
Hmmm, you all don’t like that I want to kill fascists? Why does that upset you so? I don’t see any fascists in this forum. Nor in GNXP, not really. I’m talking Stormfront.
Now settle down, y’all.
I don’t want to kill rightwingers, for Chrissake, just fascists! And of course there is a difference. You know, fascists, like those skinhead types. Like, not you guys. Geez, paranoid or what? Later.
November 15, 2007 at 4:15 am
A few comments on this whole insane IQ conundrum. I read gc’s comments on the other blog and they were downright embarrassing. The guy is having a froth attack. And all of this hand-wringing and screaming from the balconies from the “race realists”. LOL. Now tell me, why is it that almost 100% of “race realists” are WHITE males, always with high IQ’s. Now dig this. There are quite a few very bright aborigines out there, even given the 62 IQ. Now, could you imagine the equivalent of an Aborigine “race realist” blog that cheered the latest findings from WHITE GUYS Jensen, Rushton, Murray, Gottfredson, Jason Malloy, godless capitalist, Steve Sailer, whoever. Jensen discovers Aborigines are genetically stupid forever, yaaay! Wooohoo! Rushton discovers that Aborigines are the second dumbest people on Earth! Yippee! 99% of “race realist libertarians” want to “cut off the dummies” by zeroing out social spending on low IQ races like Aborigines, forcing us into a Social Darwinist race we will obviously lose miserably! Whoooha! You guys are so blind you can’t see this? I want you guys to think about this long and hard: the people who scream about this all the time are almost all White males. They also love to yell that men are smarter than women. Now think long and hard about the surprising dearth of women screaming how dumb women are, or non-Whites dancing over how low their IQ’s are. Starting to get the picture?
The lower IQ races will NOT, in the foreseeable future, agree that they have lower IQ’s or that those lower IQ’s have any meaning.
The “race realists” are almost overwhelmingly composed of those who wish to see the current insane disparities in income, quality of life, job opportunity, etc., set in stone and validated forever, because it’s redeemed by genetics and science and no one can do a thing about it. Redistributionist? Bah! Subsidies for low-IQ races doomed to fail in the Social Darwinist torture chamber? Government meddling! Failed social programs! You are shocked that some *Indians*, of all people, from the most hierarchical place on Earth, where hierarchies are ordered into something as sick and insane as caste, do not want to see their inborn privileges cemented by science? Man, you are blind? If you can’t see that this whole BS race-IQ game is all about politics, and has almost zero to do with science or truth or any of that, you need to wake up man.
You guys are a bunch of White guys yelling at Blacks and Browns (and to a lesser extent females): “Dammit! Admit you are dumb! Look! *We* admit you are dumb! Why can’t you?” Sheesh, you are a smart guy man, and you can’t see what is wrong with this picture?
Then this nonsense is combined with appalling analogies to Galileo of all people, and popular culture (not some PC truth squad) is likened outrageously to the ignoramus Church of the Middle Ages.
You say you just want to quit trying the failed things and start experimenting with what works. But then you praise ultra-radical Jason Malloy and GNXP whose whole line is, it’s all genetic, nothing can be done, environment does nothing, *28 pt IQ rise in Blacks in 14 years* is meaningless bullshit but 10-15 points between Whites and Blacks is the Holy Grail. Jesus Christ man. Not only is this “it’s all genetic” crap not supported by scientific consensus (To put it mildly!), it’s also the most toxic racist hate speech imaginable. And you can’t see this? WTF?
November 15, 2007 at 4:24 am
Correction. Indians *want* to see their privileges validated by science. Excuse me.
November 15, 2007 at 4:25 am
BTW, hey TGGP, how come you are about the only race realist who is able to talk about this stuff without coming off like a racist idiot?
November 19, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Sorry I’m late in responding, Robert. I used hyperbolic language in linking to you just for the effect of contrasting it with the minor issue of word-use. If I though fascists were seriously about to take power, I could endorse using violence against them, but otherwise I tolerate holding even the most reprehensible of beliefs. There seems to be more people than fascists you would like to kill though.
Now tell me, why is it that almost 100% of “race realists” are WHITE males
Do you consider South Asians to be White? I think males are both over-represented on the internet and likely to score low when it comes to agreeableness, which scientists are also lacking in.
always with high IQ’s.
A lot of stuff on sites like GNXP is just hard to understand. People with high IQs are also overrepresented on blogs.
Now dig this. There are quite a few very bright aborigines out there, even given the 62 IQ.
I’ve never come across any of their web-sites.
forcing us into a Social Darwinist race we will obviously lose miserably!
I’ve seen your picture, you’re another honky. Maybe “us” will lose out to Ashkenazim and east asians, which I’m fine with.
They also love to yell that men are smarter than women.
Lynn thinks this, most GNXPers seem to think they have the same mean IQs but different variance.
The lower IQ races will NOT, in the foreseeable future, agree that they have lower IQ’s or that those lower IQ’s have any meaning.
We don’t want to persuade the masses, just the elites. Whatever their race, being an elite usually implies enough IQ to handle it.
You are shocked that some *Indians*, of all people, from the most hierarchical place on Earth, where hierarchies are ordered into something as sick and insane as caste, do not want to see their inborn privileges cemented by science?
Razib is from Bangladesh, not India.
If you can’t see that this whole BS race-IQ game is all about politics, and has almost zero to do with science or truth or any of that, you need to wake up man.
If there wasn’t politics involved, Watson would still have a job. Previously you seemed to be comfortable with the idea that IQ differs by race with genetics playing a significant role (you just want public policy to check resulting inequalities) so it seems odd to say science and truth have nothing to do with it.
Then this nonsense is combined with appalling analogies to Galileo of all people, and popular culture (not some PC truth squad) is likened outrageously to the ignoramus Church of the Middle Ages.
The analogy seems pretty good to me. And popular culture can be pretty ignorant.
But then you praise ultra-radical Jason Malloy and GNXP whose whole line is, it’s all genetic, nothing can be done, environment does nothing,
I don’t think that’s their position. I think their position is that (in first world countries at least) about 75% of IQ is genetic, and in Africa especially there is a lot of room for things like micronutrients.
BTW, hey TGGP, how come you are about the only race realist who is able to talk about this stuff without coming off like a racist idiot?
Most of them probably enjoy pissing you off, while I want to stay friendly.
November 20, 2007 at 10:07 pm
. But then you praise ultra-radical Jason Malloy and GNXP whose whole line is, it’s all genetic, nothing can be done, environment does nothing,
Of course this is not my position, and I certainly never called for an end to social spending for minorities, or minority preferential policies. Or foreign aid for that matter. I am comfortable with my social position, I am not at all averse to paying taxes, and am not eager to see Americans of any race get left behind.
Look, Lindsay has done nothing but spread racially charged and implicitly violent lies about me and what I believe, and as he stated in the comments section of my blog, he won’t even debate me on his public assertions about me or the psychometric literature.
The truth is, it isn’t my beliefs that have elicited such a negative response from Lindsay at all. After all, he himself asserted in his comments section that blacks are genetically more violent (interesting to see the comments on that blog post have now been flushed down the memory hole), he agrees that the 70 is currently a valid estimate for African IQ, he accepts race and intelligence research, he says Watson’s comments were perfectly reasonable, and he has a number of political beliefs which are extremely negative to minorities that I myself do not share (he is a fan of Kevin MacDonald’s antisemitic theories).
Given this, it is a little hard to believe all the personal attacks he directs at me on his blog, for arguing that the evidence supports a genetic component to the B-W IQ difference, are in any way genuine.
Is this belief really more inherently harmful or negative towards blacks, more racist, or less supported by evidence than Lindsay’s own public assertion that there is a genetic component to B-W crime differences?
Of course not.
The only reason Robert Lindsay is putting on this hate circus, is because I hurt his ego on Dienekes’ blog by pointing out his factual errors on the Flynn Effect and telling him he was behind on the published evidence.
He did the same same elaborate personal attack with Abiola on his blog, after Abiola insulted him! It’s embarrassing. Lapite doesn’t deserve your shit, leave him alone.
Only on the Internet would anyone believe this sort of antisocial behavior is appropriate.
Here is how Robert Lindsey can show he is a man of character:
A) Delete all the inappropriate personal attacks and comments about me on his blog. (and Razib, Abiola, etc) Posting pictures, personal information, location, ages, etc, along with personal attacks, is simply not appropriate, even if you are just collecting the information from elsewhere.
For one, that picture is not me. So not only are you potentially damaging my reputation, you are dragging other innocent people through the mud with your carelessness. It’s really childish and vile behavior.
B) Argue the empirical issues with me, and leave it at that. I will gladly discuss them with you, if you can refrain from bad faith personal comments. I don’t see why it’s so hard to just have a dispassionate discussion of the issues. The only reason genetic differences are such a politically charged topic is because you are allowing them to be. In the process you are *validating* the rightwing beliefs you fight, because you are implying that genetic differences, if found, logically imply that rightwing policies are accurate. If you didn’t believe this, then beliefs about genetic differences wouldn’t be so irrationally threatening to you.
I don’t use my blog to make inflammatory, racially charged, and deeply personal attacks against other Internet users who happen to make me feel insulted or piss me off, and I think it is obvious that this is beyond the bounds of normal, civilized social behavior.
Please reconsider your behavior.
November 20, 2007 at 10:31 pm
Not welcome?
[Note from TGGP: Jason posted this when his post disappeared, thinking that I had removed his previous one. He asked me to delete it but I am leaving it up and letting people know that if one of your posts disappeared I probably didn’t delete it, as I have not done so yet and don’t expect to in the near future]
November 20, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Photo has been removed.
People disagree with me all the time. You did so in a most offensive way and frankly your whole style amounts to debate by sledgehammer.
The photo has been removed. I am associated with the One People’s Project on the Internet. We play hardball with our enemies – check out the site. We are antifas. The information on you has been turned over to them and we will see what they will do with it. You should have known, young man, when you signed on to be some kind of a younger Jensen – Murray – Rushton, what the Hell you were getting into. All of those guys have been bashed all over the place for years or decades and now the spotlight is on you. If you value your reputation, why are you smudging it by writing this stuff? I’m not damaging your rep at all – your posts are!
Look man, get real. You’re no original scholar. You’re basically channeling Jensen and Murray here – you may as well be reading their notes. As such, you will reap the shitstorm that comes their way, as you stand next to them.
That you can play these games and then insist that you are not a racist! Breathtaking! You outrageously imply that you are some kind of a “liberal”? You’re the most rightwing sounding liberal I’ve ever met. What in God’s name are you doing on GNXP -an openly libertarian blog?! What in the Hell are you, a liberal, doing glorifying (yes, you do) ultrarightists Murray, Rushton and Jensen? Every single academic lined up with these guys has a political axe to grind, and in every case it’s a far rightwing one. Now you’re playing their hits on Station Malloy, yet you’re the only one not grinding tossing some far right political football.
I read your careful quote in the NY Times: channeling Murray, you said that there is a place for everyone in this world, based on genetics. That’s far rightwing conservatism in the USA 2007. Only in Molloy Land is it not.
You know Molloy, the difference between you and me is that you recite the positions we share above with delight and joy. I can see you leap in the air when you read you on each one of those points about Blacks. For me, this facts are tragedies. For you, it’s time to break out the champagne. Yeah, that’s racist man.
Furthermore, I believe we inherit nothing more than a genetic template or set of tools. You essentially deny (along with all of GNXP) that environment affects of these things (violence, IQ, whatnot) in any meaningful way at all. Just like your pals Rushton and Jensen. And that’s a toxic brew you are peddling buddy. I’m nothing but a political DEA agent cuffing your hands for selling this poison on our streets.
You see, I say there is a Black “tendency” towards crime, same as a Black genetic setpoint of 67 IQ. But take a 71 IQ Black out of Jamaica and put him in the UK and it goes up to 93. Cuba, a mostly-Black state, has the lowest violent crime rate in the Hemisphere. To you, genes are destiny. To me, they can be intensely mediated by environment, a position you and your blog with hurricane-like ferocity. And that is all the difference in the world.
The only reason Robert Lindsay is putting on this hate circus, is because I hurt his ego on Dienekes’ blog by pointing out his factual errors on the Flynn Effect and telling him he was behind on the published evidence.
People disagree with me all the time and it’s no big deal. It’s in your tone and style, which is openly combative and insulting. You are one rude and narcissistic young man. In another 10 years, you will get hit by the reality stick, but in the meantime the world must suffer your presence.
It’s not embarrassing. What’s embarrassing is Abiola Lapite himself and his insanely narcissistic blog and public persona. Have you ever seen such a preening, narcissistic, arrogant young cock of a man? Gosh.
He didn’t insult me, he started an email war with me, and only because he has a total shit personality, kind of like you.
Your personal information is available via the NY Times. You are an artist in Madison Wisconsin. Anyway, this is how the OPP works. Check out the site. We are hitmen. Welcome to the war.
Anyway, Lapite has completely smeared you himself all over his blog for quite some time now.
Go over to Steve Saletan’s latest piece on Slate. He takes a similar take as you do, but he is much more cautious about it. Read the comments afterwards. He is getting hammered all over the place for writing this stuff, both in the comments and all over the blogs now. He didn’t go nearly as far as you did, and who knows when they will stop pummeling him. Can’t you see that this is what awaits you? People who got into this game have suffered career and personal attacks. Look at Watson. This is your future. I’m just one guy on the Internet. Wait till the rest find out about you.
I removed the pic and some of the prose but I’m leaving the rest in. I may reconsider my future comments about you, based on your civilized behavior in this comments thread
For Chrissake, Malloy, what in God’s name do you think you are getting into here?
Please point out what is “implicitly violent” in my post about you. I’m not interested in soliciting violence.
November 20, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Thanks TGGP. Yeah the disappearing/reappearing comments are a little funky.
November 20, 2007 at 11:50 pm
And yes, I am refusing to debate you on this issue and you are already pre-emptively banned from my comments thread.
I just can’t tolerate your style, man. I’ve totally calmed down about you in the past few days, but that’s only because I’ve been away from your prose.
November 21, 2007 at 12:08 am
Look Malloy. Go check the post again. I removed most of the adjectives and your location and the fake photo. However, I still call you a racist and in one place I say you have an unprofessional style. I stand by those assertions. Only because you were decent enough to stop by here and be nice about things did I do this. Others in the future will not be so charitable.
In the future, I will probably not use adjectives to describe you, but I may well call you a de facto racist, because unfortunately, you have staked that one out.
Thx for sharing your concerns with me and being civilized and mature about things.
You need to watch your style. I’m not the first person you ticked off and I won’t be the last. It pays to make your points cautiously. You debate with an AK-47. How do you expect your opponents to react to that.
Abiola will not do this, because he is an ass. Hence, my comments about him will remain.
November 21, 2007 at 8:55 am
I don’t see any of that removed, it just looks like you’ve extended your antisocial personal attacks.
At least you appear to agree that the posts have far more to do with settling personal scores in your mind, than they do with the arbitrary political outrages you pair onto them for appearances.
As for your rhetoric about what I “signed up for”, well that’s your choice. I can publicize and discuss the science I want to, and I am doing it under my real name without regret. That doesn’t mean I don’t expect extremist nonsense, and it doesn’t mean I won’t call you on it. Perhaps foolishly expecting that you are a decent human being that can be reasoned with.
If my views really were so horrible you could challenge them as they were, instead of systematically attributing positions to me I don’t hold. And if you were interested in my true positions (instead of just making things up), you wouldn’t ‘preemptively’ decide not to engage me on the factual issues.
The idea that I – much less most of GNXP – believe the environment does nothing is ludicrous. I try and rely on what the research evidence says about the environment, and attempt to understand these questions quantitatively.
For instance, in the developed world the heritability of IQ is about .80 by adulthood, the shared environment has no relation to adult IQ, and the nonshared environment takes care of the rest.
It is absurd to take that as a “rightwing position”, it is what the evidence shows.
Similarly adoption studies show Af-Ams raised in upper class white homes perform like Af-Ams in the general population.
So we can put a number on certain experimental environmental interventions, and get a feel for how much each unit of environment affects different genotypes.
Certainly the latter experiment is not as airtight as the former, and I fully concede that it is possible the racial gap is still fully environmental (more definitive genetic studies could be performed right now, and will probably be done eventually). But my position is reasonable given the current evidence. It is also not “rightwing” or antiblack in any meaningful sense, unless you start with the understanding that rightwing or racist premises about the meaning of such differences are correct. (which most people on the left implicitly do)
You see, I say there is a Black “tendency” towards crime, same as a Black genetic setpoint of 67 IQ.
In other words our positions are pretty much the same, and all your nonsense about my “racist declarations of racial warfare against blacks everywhere” are motivated by personal issues instead of political ones. It’s obvious.
Seriously Lindsay, the similarity of our viewpoints makes your extended personal attacks even more petty and illogical. Be rational, revise the post, take out ALL the personal attacks and let’s debate the facts using the literature.
But take a 71 IQ Black out of Jamaica and put him in the UK and it goes up to 93. Cuba, a mostly-Black state, has the lowest violent crime rate in the Hemisphere.
In fact I’ve never denied a range of reaction, I’ve promoted it in almost every discussion on this issue. Again you are inventing beliefs I never advocated. During WWI there were a number of states where black IQ was higher than the white IQ in other states. Black crime rates changed a lot over the 20th century. There is definitely a there there. The cross-cultural data is complex, but broadly consistent with a range of reaction interpretation of racial differences (for instance there are still well-known, but unquantified crime and occupational differences within Cuba)
To you, genes are destiny. To me, they can be intensely mediated by environment, a position you and your blog with hurricane-like ferocity. And that is all the difference in the world.
Um no. To me genes certainly vary with environment, and it’s up to us to figure out how. My New York Times quote touched on this, we need to figure out what extra effort can help alleviate social gaps. Part of my interest in this subject is my conviction that we can’t engage problems effectively until we understand them. Do I have a bias towards genetics? Of course. But I am aware of it, and try to keep objective and always welcome data-based challenges. We all start from somewhere, but, hopefully, move with the advancing data.
read your careful quote in the NY Times: channeling Murray, you said that there is a place for everyone in this world, based on genetics. That’s far rightwing conservatism in the USA 2007. Only in Molloy Land is it not.
Rightwing conservatism is cutting off social spending, which I explicitly did not advocate to the Times. You aren’t being objective.
You outrageously imply that you are some kind of a “liberal”?… What in God’s name are you doing on GNXP -an openly libertarian blog?!
I am a registered Democrat, vote for Democrats, and you completely ignored this statement above:
… I certainly never called for an end to social spending for minorities, or minority preferential policies. Or foreign aid for that matter. I am comfortable with my social position, I am not at all averse to paying taxes, and am not eager to see Americans of any race get left behind.
No, I’m not a Stalinist like you, and I do believe Communism was a murderous ideology, so, yes, I am “rightwing” if that is your litmus test. But that is a fairly extreme test.
And no GNXP is not a “libertarian blog”, and has never had an official political viewpoint. A minority (but plurality) of our readers and posters are small ‘l’ libertarian, and the rest are almost evenly divided between those on the left and the right (we poll our readers every year). I suspect all of your knowledge about GNXP is back-reading from the race row years 2002-2003 when godless was onboard and razib was somewhat more political. Check out the archives 2006-2007, or even 2005, and you will find very little politics. It is a solid science blog. IMO perhaps the best on the Internet for topics like genetics, along with Dienekes, John Hawks, Carl Zimmer, which are very similar blogs.
Certainly nothing like your idea of it.
November 21, 2007 at 11:27 am
I am not going to continue this debate with you. You are only showing yourself, once again, to exemplify all of those adjectives which I removed about you. Maybe I should not have! The post as it stands is just fine.
A “liberal” whose favorite author is *Adam Smith*! Who sprinkles his prose liberally with quotes about the evils of Communism? Cold War liberalism is dead. Communism is dead. The only folks who praise Adam Smith and continuously rant about Communism anymore are rightwingers. You praise Razib, gc, Rushton, Jensen, Lynn, Murray to the skies?! These ppl are far rightwingers and you act like they are your heroes. Your cognitive dissonance is as breathtaking as your narcissism and immaturity.
Anyway, so your politics are totally confused. Why any non-far-rightwinger would hang out on GNXP is beyond me. Just today there is a post railing about “socialism” in Finland, a capitalist country for Chrissake.
You say you acknowledge environment, but in your Watson post, you shot down every single suggestion that Blacks had raised their IQ even one point anywhere by any means! Wow, that is some environment – an environment that does precisely nothing.
BTW, as long as you are on this “IQ is 80% genetic” kick, see Flynn and his co-author on how that 80% can be 100% environmentally driven and 0% genetically driven.
You put yourselves in the same league as Dienekes?!
This is as good as it gets, Malloy. I removed a ton of nasty stuff about you, and like a narcissistic ingrate, it’s not good enough. I see you are starting to get pounded on the blogs. Bout time. The only reason you are being left alone is your obscurity.
This debate is over, and I am not particularly interested in talking to you in the future.
November 21, 2007 at 12:09 pm
A “liberal” whose favorite author is *Adam Smith*!
The Theory of Moral Sentiments is an excellent book, still full of relevant insights, and hardly a screed. Brad Delong has praised it as well. Anyway I don’t doubt that we have different ideas about what makes a ‘good’ liberal, but on the normalized scale of other Americans the label fits.
Just today there is a post railing about “socialism” in Finland, a capitalist country for Chrissake.
A one sentence, tongue-in-cheek post.
You say you acknowledge environment, but in your Watson post, you shot down every single suggestion that Blacks had raised their IQ even one point anywhere by any means!
I didn’t even discuss blacks “everywhere”. Certainly African-American IQ is higher than African IQ, and IMO is mostly due to the environment. Blacks and whites adopted into the same good homes, in the same good neighborhoods show the same gap, and all the theories which might explain why fail when tested. So based on such findings and others 1-.70 SD appears reasonable given the current range of developmental environments shared by US ethnic groups. Future evidence could rapidly suggest otherwise, I look forward to what it shows either way.
BTW, as long as you are on this “IQ is 80% genetic” kick
.80 heritable in developed countries. Flynn certainly does not deny that the differences between individuals in the same population at the same time are largely the result of genetic differences. He sees big differences between generations as entirely environmental. He and I differ on the meaning and significance of these generational differences.
I removed a ton of nasty stuff about you, and like a narcissistic ingrate, it’s not good enough.
You can say as much nasty stuff as you’d like; basic civility and good sportsmanship are the broader issues. As I’ve said, I’d like a public environment that best facilitates the pursuit of truth, and that doesn’t include one tainted by misinformation and vicious bad faith personal attacks.
This debate is over, and I am not particularly interested in talking to you in the future.
Bye.
November 26, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Ha, Robert Lindsay has a lot of nerve, calling other people racist. He hates Jews! He thinks Africans are stupid. And according to Malloy, he thinks blacks are genetically prone to violence. Such hypocrisy!
November 26, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Hey, Pekka, I think you might be my only commenter I haven’t seen elsewhere. I can be surprised by Linday’s “speck in thy brother’s eye” behavior as well. I would suggest taking it up with him at his blog, but he’s fond of banning.
January 22, 2008 at 9:58 am
It’s not racism to think Africans have an average IQ of 67 or that they are genetically prone to violence. I don’t hate Jews but I love to be called an anti-Semite because it’s so wrong.
The difference is that I do not dislike Blacks and I mean them no harm. I don’t know Jason Malloy’s views of Blacks, but his rhetoric and the views that he is pushing are objectively Black-hostile. It’s not so much what you say, it’s the way you say it, as my Mom used to say. And racism is about tone as much as anything else. Malloy’s posts – indeed, all of GNXP – are nothing more than psychological warfare against Black people – mine hopefully are not, and certainly they are not designed with that objective in mind. My site is Black-friendly, and I keep that in mind every time I write about Blacks.
And yeah, I guess I’m a hypocrite, though I try not to be, as hypocrisy is apparently part of being human.
January 22, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Looking at the tone of the contributors to GNXP (if not the commenters), I don’t detect the same hostility that you do. The site isn’t all about race, and what they say about race isn’t all about blacks & whites.
September 20, 2009 at 4:32 am
Jason Malloy; I recently had an issue with Robert Lindsay, making a host of blatantly racist comments, against blacks in regards to their I.Q. When I challenged him on his blatantly biased views, he promptly banned me from his site and then refused to debate with me based on any factual evidence. Robert’s M.O. appears to be making groundless statements that he cannot back up with research and then insulting and banning a person once they contradict him. If that isn’t narcissistic then what is? I pointed out the blatantly biased Binet-Simon I.Q. testing process, that was headed by Robert Yerke around WWI and he didn’t even respond to the results, but instead attacked my spelling, like some distraught uptight schoolmarm from the1950’s. I asked him a simple question about how did he know that some Nigerian scammers had 67 I.Q’S and he couldn’t answer me, so he immediately banned me from his site. I also read a post on black male’s testosterone and he talked about how he was afraid of black men, but didn’t mind dealing with black women. Robert told people at his blog that he lost two of his ex girlfriends to black men and I believe that a lot of his racist rhetoric is a personal vendetta against men that he feels powerless against.
I was very surprised that someone who claims to be an open minded intellectual would resort to pettiness like personal insults, verbal nitpicking and banning people for disagreeing with him. However, upon seeing Robert’s infantile, illogical and cowardly behavior toward you in this blog I definitely know that my instincts about this chap were correct.
September 20, 2009 at 12:35 pm
That was Robert Yerkes