Hopefully Anonymous started a discussion with me over the Great Man theory of history vs materialism, which I’m getting tired of trackbacks from my own blog. You can find it from this SB GNXP post on the recent anthrax suicide (the one with the hilarious drunk brother interview on CNN). That post also served as a teaser to the subject of cliodynamics, which is elaborated based on the work of Peter Turchin in this GNXP original post. The post itself is sizable enough, but there’s also a comment storm. Steve Sailer makes his old point that interesting things are hard to predict while obvious things are boring, while Mencius and John Emerson rail against scientism intruding on their beloved subject. I say bring on the scientism. I think it’s ridiculous to consider history a branch of literature, and anybody who does hold that belief should stick to arguing canon at fanpages and leave reality to realists. Also, the commission of poetry should be at least a misdemeanor.
The Nurture Assumption is great writing (the best I’ve read in any pop-sci book) but it isn’t literature. Though kicked out of academia, Judith Harris is as guilty of scientism as any social scientist and reacts to bad studies not by throwing up her hands but looking for better designed studies. Hoo-ahh! I’m unsure about part of her book though. In chapter 9 “The Transmission of Culture” in the section “Welcome to the Neighborhood” she discusses how moving kids from bad neighborhoods to good neighborhoods works wonders because it is peer groups rather than families that shape kids. She references studies on London boys moving out of city (even with their families) and one in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology that said “When African American youths and white youths were compared without regard to neighborhood context, African American youths were more frequently and more seriously delinquent than white youths. When African American youths did not live in underclass neighborhoods, their delinquent behavior was similar to that of the white youths.” I haven’t read the JQC study, but I had read other data saying that the crime rate among blacks in middle class family was higher than those of whites under the poverty line, though I forget if it was closer to the average black or white rate. That idea is not too surprising which is why it has motivated a number of programs to end the cycle of poverty. There’s some info in that link on programs of population dispersal contrasted with neighborhood rejuvenation, and while I agree with Ed Glaeser that Buffalo should be allowed to die, I’m not enthusiastic about the alternative. Freakonomics reports that vouchers transferring kids to good schools doesn’t make a difference, as the kids that apply do just as well even if they don’t get removed from their lousy schools. As Hannah Rosin reports, section 8 and gentrification has resulted in crime increases in many midsize cities. Steve Sailer says, like Harris, that it’s questionable whether moving underclass kids into middle class households will make things worse or better. A school full of underclass kids is likely to socialize kids into underclass behavior, but historically black and all womens’ colleges output larger numbers of scientists in part because there isn’t the same stigma against acting like “them” and there’s more space for kids to get the meagre social benefits of high nerd status if they don’t have to compete with Chang Q Einstein. Harris asks in the next chapter “If two’s company, how many does it take to make a crowd?”. What’s the optimal number or proportion? The answer is that we don’t know. More data is needed, not more literature.
There’s another point of tension in the book. Harris likes to repeat that children are not aspiring adults but aspiring to be competent children, just as prisoners must act according to the code of prisoners rather than guards until they are released. Harris also places great importance on what Freud called the “latent” period as actually the most formative years. But if the years when a child is socialized by a parent don’t seem to have much durable effect and from childhood there is another great transition to adulthood, why should the effects of peers at that age endure? Shouldn’t they be free to adapt to the very different situations they will be in as adults? Maybe there’s an answer after chapter 14 (my current position) or maybe I missed it earlier. Comments are welcome.
August 4, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Freakonomics reports that vouchers transferring kids to good schools doesn’t make a difference, as the kids that apply do just as well even if they don’t get removed from their lousy schools.
Did the author know this by comparing those aspiring kids who both did and did not get vouchers? I guess simply observing who in fact is enthusiastic over educational options tells you all you need to know about who will benefit. The case for vouchers would seem to be that at the very least, those kids (and parents) who wanted out can get out, but it’s hardly a remedy for overcoming class divisions.
A school full of underclass kids is likely to socialize kids into underclass behavior, but historically black and all womens’ colleges output larger numbers of scientists in part because there isn’t the same stigma against acting like “them” and there’s more space for kids to get the meagre social benefits of high nerd status if they don’t have to compete with Chang Q Einstein.
Good point. I can’t remember if it was researcher John Ogbu or Debra Dickerson who made the point that when the nerds are mostly of a different race it can foment bitterness, not aspiration.
August 4, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Did the author know this by comparing those aspiring kids who both did and did not get vouchers? I guess simply observing who in fact is enthusiastic over educational options tells you all you need to know about who will benefit.
Yes.
I favor vouchers even if they don’t produce educational benefit if only because as long as we’re forcing kids to stay in these places 7 hours a day it should be places they find the least unpleasant.
August 5, 2008 at 8:59 am
“But if the years when a child is socialized by a parent don’t seem to have much durable effect and from childhood there is another great transition to adulthood, why should the effects of peers at that age endure?”
Harris sort of addresses this in her other book, “No Two Alike,” which attempts to explain the portion of human variation that remains after we control for genetic and environmental influences. Her thesis in that book is more complex (a point which she defends in an insightful digression on Occam’s razor), but I think she would argue that peer-influenced differences may endure into adulthood due to formative events being interpreted in terms of an individual’s self-perceived group status (which is largely peer status). There are endless contingencies that may come into play in such a process (the role of chance is discussed at some length), but it seems plausible that if peer influence + status reification accounts for a significant amount of the otherwise unexplained portion of the pie, then the dynamics of peer influence could be significant in a way that conventional social metrics have yet to grasp.
August 5, 2008 at 10:25 pm
The best thing for Blacks is socialism or Communism. Dominica has a murder rate 50% lower than the US. Dominica has 100% Blacks, and the US is only 13% Black. But Dominica, while not socialist, has little inequality. You might say that they are all poor together. In Mozambique under Samora Machel’s Communism, people who lived in Maputo said that you could walk across the city in the middle and night and not worry about a thing. Cuba has one of the lowest crime rates in the Hemisphere and Havana is said to be the safest big city in the Hemisphere. In socialist states, everyone is pretty much the same, so there is little frustration, nor is there much desire to get ahead, as that’s pretty much impossible. In capitalist states with high inequality, many poor Blacks see rich people running around, wonder why they can’t be rich too, get frustrated when they can’t get rich too, and resolve to get ahead one way or another.
Islam is also excellent for Blacks. Blacks behave much better and have much lower crime rates in Islamic societies.
Moving Section 8 families out of the projects has shown some benefits, but it’s obviously not a panacea.
I actually support “a Black a block”. Small numbers of Blacks scattered about still cause problems, but they just don’t cause mayhem.
August 5, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I taught in the public schools for years. I taught in ghetto schools in South LA, Watts, Compton, Willowbrook and Lynwood.
I assure you that 100% of the problem with these schools is *the students*. Not the teachers, not the administrators, not the buildings. It’s true that they are out of money. But one of the problems is that the students are constantly destroying school property like books.
I taught a Chemistry class in Compton. It was almost all Black girls and they were doing well. Black girls also have higher IQ’s than Black boys and in the ghetto, the honor roll is all girls. If you want to apply yourself in ghetto schools, there is ample opportunity, and it’s not really as Hellish as you might think. If I were a ghetto kid, I would much rather be in a ghetto high school than standing around in my neighborhood. By the 11th and 12th grades the problem students are about zero. Any student wanting to apply themselves would find themselves surrounded by surprised teachers delighted in finding a kid who actually wants to learn something. They’d be showered with attention.
Vouchers are ridiculous. Private schools are only good because they throw out any kid who acts bad. In the public schools in the ghetto, we are forced to take everyone and we can’t throw all the bad actors out. If we did, we’d probably have to throw out 20-30% of the kids.
August 6, 2008 at 1:17 am
The Dominican Republic is run by Hispanics who think they’re superior to blacks. I remember looking up its demography at the CIAs World Factbook when arguing with somebody about Jared Diamond’s Collapse, which I just checked out yesterday. They massacred a whole bunch of Haitians back in the day. Since you yourself claim they aren’t socialist, that seems to hold against your point. I can’t rely on the data the Cuban state gives out, but all the boat people vote with their feet against it being a worker’s paradise.
Not the teachers
Being a teacher, you would say that! But most teachers seem to think the answer is more money, so you that goes against type.
Black girls also have higher IQ’s than Black boys
Is there actually data for that? I thought their medians were the same while males have more variance. I think more importantly girls are more conscientious.
I would hope under a voucher system students could still be expelled. As I noted, the problem kids are unlikely to try to get into good schools anyway.
August 6, 2008 at 5:26 am
So my choices for history are a physics wanna-be and a branch of literature? Yikes!
How about simply trying to determine and record what happened in the past? Obviously deciding what information is important enough to record, and piecing together an accurate picture from primary sources both require some theory and some judgment, but aping economics’ over-elaborate and worthless mathematical models isn’t going to help.
August 6, 2008 at 10:58 am
physics wanna-be
They say all branches of knowledge are reducible to physics.
How about simply trying to determine and record what happened in the past?
If we could set up cameras everywhere that would record everything for posterity, that would be one way of simply going about it and recording events. That isn’t what we do though. We summarize and try to understand why things happened.
aping economics’ over-elaborate and worthless mathematical models isn’t going to help
A big part of history is economic history. There I think the intrusion of economics would be welcome.
August 7, 2008 at 1:05 am
The place I refer to is Dominica, not the Dominican Republic. It’s all Black. Leftists like me consider capitalist states that have little inequality to approximate a socialist system.
I just never saw that many incompetent teachers in all my years. The profession is rigorously policed by the administrators and the damned parents, not to mention the kids, and they are always breathing down your neck threatening you in case you screw up. It’s one of the most high-pressure occupations I have ever worked in.
It’s the Black boys who get hammered for acting White, not the Black girls. Average Black female score is I think 87 and male is I think 83, but I need to look it up.
Whether or not Cuba is a workers’ paradise, it does have some of the lowest malnutrition and infant mortality rates in the region and everyone agrees it’s the best educated. The life expectancy is excellent too. Comparisons are made to Costa Rica, a social democracy (socialist state) with similar figures, but Cuba lacks Costa Rica’s horrific slums. And travellers say that it has the lowest violent crime in the region and Havana is the safest large city in Latin America. The record is clear: the more socialism, the less crime, in general. Note the explosions in crime when the East Bloc went capitalist.
Since the voucher system private schools get to throw out all the knotheads that act bad and the public schools have to keep them, comparisons make no sense.
August 7, 2008 at 1:36 am
The relationship between Dominican Republic and Haiti is more complicated and interesting than you portray, TGGP. Think India and Pakistan, or Iraq and Iran rather than Japan and China, or England and Ireland. For example, the Dominican Republic has been conquored by Haiti in the past, too.
August 8, 2008 at 12:23 am
TGGP: “A big part of history is economic history. There I think the intrusion of economics would be welcome.”
“History is mostly the history of people trying to make a living.” — A quote from the professor of a History of Economics course I took a long, long time ago.
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