File under “Intra-Left Strife.”
Old school rationalist Edmund Standing of Butterflies and Wheels has a piece up lambasting the “far-left” (notably the Marxist left) for attempting to silence (through moral one-upmanship) critics of Islam. There’s some good stuff in there about the laziness with which many on the left equate racism with secular social democracy’s discontent with (illiberal) religion. But I’m generally at odds with the mission statement, if you will, over at B&W. They can be placed under the “militant atheist” umbrella, and most certainly gliding on the “rationalist” wing of the rationalist-pluralist liberal ornithopter (heh). B&W has endorsed Maryam Namazie’s “One Law for All” campaign, which seeks to outlaw Sharia courts – and all other religious courts, regardless of their level of social liberalism – in Britain. Namazie, not coincidentally, is a central committee member of the Worker Communist Party of Iran.
Anyway, this quote by Marxist John Molyneux caught my attention:
To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Marxism and international socialism an illiterate, conservative, superstitious Muslim peasant who supports Hamas is more progressive than an educated liberal atheist Israeli who supports Zionism (even critically).
Certainly a different sort of Marxist than Namazie! I’m always pleased to hear the implications of a political stance potentially too refined and obscure to be understood put clearly and unequivocally. It’s on par with “No, black people cannot be racist because racism equals power plus prejudice. They haven’t got power.” (That quote, heard so long ago, has stuck with me.)
I wonder, does Molyneux’s view find a corollary in hardcore Pluralist Libertarianism? The latter’s version might read something like this:
To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Pluralist Libertarianism and its universal application an illiterate, conservative, superstitious Muslim peasant who supports Hamas is more appealing than an educated liberal atheist Israeli who supports Zionism (even critically).
As you can read, the “translation” is a bit tortured. First, a Pluralist Libertarian would not attribute any kind of pluralist-minded libertarianism to the Muslim peasant himself, which is the reason for the insertion of the word “appealing.” Second, as Molyneux writes it, an educated liberal atheist Israeli who supports Zionism need not be necessarily less appealing. Though two reasons come to mind as to why they are likely to be: (1) Zionism is colonialism, and (2) the Israeli state’s relationship with the U.S. make said Israeli objectively less conducive to the aims of a Pluralist Libertarian…especially one based in the U.S. itself.
I’m curious if a Marxist of Molyneux’s stripe would extend the same sympathy and label of “progressive” to the superstitious, illiterate and conservative enclaves within the western world. I’m guessing not, but then that’s not surprising given neo-Marxism’s hierarchy of the oppressed. One is more likely to find leftish sympathy for those groups on the part of scholars of religion or cultural anthropologists. Though in their case an appreciation of the worth of religious belief itself (and diversity, to which I’m partial if it be this or equality), as opposed to its instrumental value in achieving a worker’s state, is paramount.
August 23, 2009 at 7:35 am
I think it’s pretty obvious which of the two types, would be more amenable to communism.
August 23, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Would pluralist libertarians even have a unitary conception of “progress”?
That ssrc post was really loopy. I had actually started writing a post on the polyandry that didn’t bark, and may finish it later, but they seem to misuse the term. Nobody considers single-sex monastic communities to be polyandrous. Those are clear examples of people choosing an alternative to the norm of heterosexual monogamous marriage that persist within a normal society without seeming terribly aberrant. The bit about homosexuality among some polygynous tribe reminded me of some claptrap I read from some psychologist about prison bitches merely discovering different aspects of themselves. We can call these people victims because if you gave them the option of which they’ve been deprived, they’d take it (of course, many would victimize others if given the chance). Its also funny how fundies get mocked for believing that sexuality is malleable with enough preaching, and then to read pomos saying the same thing.
August 24, 2009 at 2:17 am
http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3458371.html
August 24, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I criticized that here. James Petras is an example of someone who has concluded Marx’s proletariat will never rise up in capitalist countries and so the only revolutionary classes are third-worlders who retain some sense of community (hat-tip to Lemuel Pitkin in the comments at Crooked Timber, speaking of which check out their discussion of George Scialabba on Chris Lasch)
August 24, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Dude. I often like your snarky smack downs on Unqual Res. And lots of my favorite bloggers link to you. And when I can understand what you are posting about, it is good shit. Bottom line : I always feel like I should like your blog. But unfortunately I can rarely understand it, can rarely make actual contact with what you are saying.
An example : perhaps I am just not smart enough to get what you were saying in your archived blog post that you link. The part you reference though does say:
> With the defeat of
> communism we now see
> the radical left more
> dominated by socialist
> anarchism (rejected by
> Marxists as too left wing,
> which is why Lee Harris’
> Intellectual Origins of
> America Bashing is off the
> mark).
My response to just this single sentance (since I do not understand that much of the rest of the post) : do people actually care much what doctrinaire Marxists think? I took Harris’ point to be : since the clear failure/moral wrongness of Communism, the motivating force behind the radical left (and the moderate left too) has become “anti-racism” (i.e. to fight for people with ancestors nearer the equator, and against those with ancestors further from it). Incredibly priviliaged black man Henry Gates = good guy, working class white man James Crowley = bad guy, etc etc.
My point in posting the link was that Harris’ thesis seems to jibe with your quote by Molyneux, that a revolutionary white-ish man is considered lesser than a reactionary brown-ish man.
August 24, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Understandable, I dimly remembered reading it before and googled to see if I had said anything about it.
I didn’t write the post quoting Molyneux. mupetblast/Dain did.
I think Lee Harris has an America-centric viewpoint and the cold war issue of communism was salient to him. His example of Noam Chomsky (who says his unchanged viewpoint was in the mainstream of Zionism when he was young, which might sound odd for an anarchist, but as Roderick Long said he’s sort of a social democrat) doesn’t qualify as someone disillusioned with communism drifting towards third-worldism. As I found recently, his own father was an anarcho-syndicalist and Chomsky is merely following in that tradition. He calls him the most vocal proponent of a revisionist Marxist thesis, but doesn’t quote him anywhere proclaiming it (or anything else, for that matter). There are plenty of others in the radical left who proclaim socialist anarchism (I stick with my guess that they outnumber Marxists), but Harris completely centers his essay around Marx and cannot accommodate them.
Here is an alternative to the theory that the collapse of communism resulted in a shift of focus: it is rather the dominance of the liberal/progressive welfare & regulatory state (especially the absence of radical unions) that shifted attention elsewhere. The Right may have been a “victim of its own success” with the end of the cold war, decline in crime and worldwide wave of neoliberalism, but the left was a victim of its success even earlier. Anti-war/anti-imperialism, anti-racism, feminism, sexual liberation and so on were dominant themes in the 60s, and the enemy was establishment liberal LBJ (even after his Great Society and Civil Rights acts).
The failure of the proletariat to rise up was apparent long before then. I think WW1 made that quite apparent. Lenin realized it, which he why he advocated a cadre of revolutionary vanguard bringing about revolt in a relatively unindustrialized area, skipping the “late capitalism” phase. Bakunin, Marx’ anarchist rival in the International, saw it earlier and instead placed his hopes in the lumpenproletariat. In hindsight I think Mao was most accurate in believing (contra Marx) that backward peasant peoples were the ripest ground for revolution.
August 24, 2009 at 11:18 pm
It might seem like I’m defending Chomsky above, but I’d like to make it clear I think he’s wrong (I haven’t read his books, but the same could be said of many writers I badmouth). Because he’s atypical he thinks people have to be brainwashed to behave they way they do naturally. He wrote some shameful apologetics for the Khmer Rouge’s Cambodia (though his criticism of American foreign policy is more telling when you realize we supported Pol Pot after he was removed from power!). And Lee Harris is right to think his radical views on economics influence his foreign policy. He and Zunes think the Iraq War happened because the military industrial complex wanted to make money, even though they’d been happily doing that selling expensive equipment that never needed to be tested in battle long before that. The major cost of a war occurs after its over, in the form of payments owed to veterans. And of course lots of the necessary dirty work is essentially just a waste, so it would be way cheaper to just directly hand out money to defense contractors (which is what happens in peacetime). The competing theory that Israel is responsible doesn’t work out either, Iran (which was Iraq’s enemy) was clearly seen as the bigger threat at the time. Mearsheimer & Walt’s book acknowledged that the Israeli government only jumped on the bandwagon when the ball in Washington had gone rolling somewhere other than their top choice. As with football and consumerism (though I’m cool with both of those) I blame we the people.
August 24, 2009 at 11:38 pm
> I think Lee Harris has an America-
> centric viewpoint and the cold war
> issue of communism was salient to
> him.
I do not remember reading anything else by him, “Civ and It’s Enemies” etc. All I can remember reading is that one article, and I found it pretty persuasive.
> the left was a victim of its success even earlier.
I think that that was more or less Harris’ point. The left secured a comfortable standard of living for its benificiaries, the first world’s working class (Marx and Engles didn’t give a fig about the people of the third world). So, with the white masses more-or-less satisfied, where else could they find a restless, disatisfied mass of people to strike at the hated rulers of the first world with?
> the enemy was establishment liberal LBJ
Was it LBJ himself, or was it the residual elements of order and structure in the estblishment that he presided over (cops, military-indutrial complex, churches, corporations)?
> The failure of the proletariat to
> rise up was apparent long before then.
Again, I think that this is Harris’ point.
> In hindsight I think Mao was most
> accurate in believing (contra Marx)
> that backward peasant peoples were
> the ripest ground for revolution.
Of which the West ran out of a while ago, but the third world still seems to have plenty of.
August 25, 2009 at 8:58 pm
So, with the white masses more-or-less satisfied, where else could they find a restless, disatisfied mass of people to strike at the hated rulers of the first world with?
I think a lot of lefty behavior is geared toward finding alienated groups to buy into their larger coalition, but not necessarily ones up to that kind of task. People aren’t that scared of mobs of feminists, LGBQTwhatevers and the disabled.
Was it LBJ himself
Yes, it was LBJ himself. “Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?” In your list you leave out the schools (which they frequently tried to shut down), and then of course many denounced social welfare agencies as instruments through which the establishment controlled the underclass.
Of which the West ran out of a while ago, but the third world still seems to have plenty of.
The Nepalese Maoists seem to be active in cultivating backward peasants for revolution, but that doesn’t much seem to be the case for first-world leftists, for whom the third-world is more a pitiable victim (this is most extreme for sub-Saharan Africa). Environmentalism and animal rights are a particularly clear case of this. As the Lorax said, “I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues”.
Brink Lindsey wrote in Age of Abundance (which I admit to not reading) that post-war changes in politics can be viewed as moving up Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and I think that captures more of it than a search for replacement revolutionaries.
August 25, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Good points, re : LBJ, school and welfare agencies, and civilization moving up the hierarchy of needs.
Regarding “revolution”, however, one doesn’t need to limit the discussion to the bloody Storming-The-Bastille/Lenin-n-Trotsky/Mao/Ernesto-n-Fidel types. I would say, the transition in fifty short years from Jim Crow to modern hate crime laws has been a revolution. The Presidency of the United States passing in those same fifty short years from Dwight Eisenhower to the dutiful son of an African Communist and a bohemian miscegenator was a revolution.
And as for people being scared of mobs of feminists, LGBQTwhatevers and the disabled, city alderpersons and university presidents nationwide sure seem to be.
August 26, 2009 at 7:45 pm
They aren’t scared of those groups, they’re sympathetic to their demands and complicit. Such institutions would have no intention of winning a lawsuit filed by those groups if sued (a consent decree is one indicator), and might even appreciate it as an excuse so they can say they have no choice.
August 28, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I think *many* alderpersons and *most* university presidents are sympathetic to the waffen-PC’s demands, and, yes, complicit with them. Protests are however also sometimes a way of sniffing out the remaining few with any sort of independent spine (Larry Summers at Harvard, etc). Public figures who don’t immediately and enthusiastically embrace the waffen-PC’s position on things do actually seem to lose jobs.
Maybe, given that they were all the product of the modern US university system, the executives at Men’s Warehouse, Progressive Insurance, GEICO, Proctor & Gamble, and Lexis-Nexis were, in fact, personally offended by Glenn Beck’s recent comments about Obama (that he is “racist towards whites”, or whatever Beck said). But, I also think it just as likely that they dropped their patronage of his show more out of a desire to cover their asses, so as to not be excommunicated as “vile heretics” by the high priests of the Church of Almighty Equality.
August 28, 2009 at 8:36 pm
I’m offended by Glenn Beck. I’m offended that such a buffoon can be given a show to himself and that CNN (what he was on when I saw him) thought I’d want to watch it. I heard that the advertisers just shifted some time-slots so that Fox News didn’t actually lose any money though.
Larry Summers is a liberal and what he actually said was quite tame. He’d been feuding with his faculty for a while for how he wanted to allocate the budget and some other things. It was they who got upset, and in universities the workers are management.
August 25, 2009 at 8:20 am
“Was it LBJ himself, or was it the residual elements of order and structure in the estblishment that he presided over (cops, military-indutrial complex, churches, corporations)?”
It was LBJ who ordered the truly maniacal troop buildup in Vietnam. 17,000 when he took office to about 600,000 when he left.
““No, black people cannot be racist because racism equals power plus prejudice. They haven’t got power.” (That quote, heard so long ago, has stuck with me.)”-tggp
You only heard that once? For a while it was one of the common “movement” cliches. But you’re a lot younger than I am.
August 25, 2009 at 9:06 pm
tggp (that would be me) is not the author of the above post. That would be Dain.
Apparently the “prejudice plus power” quote is common in the UK as well.
August 26, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Yea this is my post. Maybe if I chimed in more in the comments – and posted more often, admittedly – this confusion wouldn’t occur.
Yes I’ve only heard that once. I’m older than TGGP (30), but probably younger than you.
September 7, 2009 at 1:17 am
I don’t think pluralism is the right word for what you have discussed here and in the past. The term pluralism indicates there are multiple legitimate options but also illegitimate ones. You advocate letting communities/groups of individuals create their own rules regardless of moral foundation/effect.
That would fall under relativism or subjectivism which would describe a view in which all options are equally legitimate.
Unless I have missed something you don’t seem to condemn any community arrangement. There was a Distributed Republic comment section that I can’t seem to find (I think it was a side discussion on Wilkinson’s critique of charter cities) in which you seem to condemn any attempt at dismantling “illiberal” arrangements.
September 7, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I am a subjectivist (I do not think that any normative statement has objective truth content). I would not call myself a relativist, I don’t accept any relative standard.
I don’t view anything as objectively “legitimate” or “illegitimate”. I personally prefer some things to others, but recognize that as merely my own personal preference.
Yes, I would object to someone declaring the arrangements of others illiberal and taking it upon themselves to dismantle them. I would not like arrangements I enter into to be dismantled and so would propose that all involved in a Federation of Liberty refrain from dismantling their confederates.
September 14, 2009 at 11:49 am
If you could please expand on the difference between the two terms you hint at I think that would help alleviate some confusion.
So you would say that your condemnation of other political systems is a personal preference? So do you belong to the school of thought that your arguments about efficacy and liberty are attempts to make share your preference?
Would you also support the continued existence of an arrangement that is coercive and doesn’t allow it’s participants to opt out?
September 14, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Yes, my condemnation is a preference. My arguments may partly be about getting others to share my preferences, but more importantly for pushing a framework that can accommodate different preferences.
The fact that I might oppose attempts to dismantle an arrangement does not mean I support its continued existence. I am a big fan of “exit”, but in a certain sense I endorse arrangements that don’t allow opt out: contracts. Some might argue that contracts can be opted out, but the point of them is to be binding even if people might not want to follow through with them ex post.
September 7, 2009 at 4:01 pm
If that’s what pluralism means then I guess you’re right that I misused the term. Though from looking at Wikipedia’s entry on Pluralism (subcategories “political philosophy” and “cultural pluralism”) and recalling previous conversations I’m led to think I used the word correctly.
I think it was TGGP commenting on the charter cities, not me.
September 14, 2009 at 11:54 am
The polphi wiki entry deals with the idea of pluralism being a plurality of voices negotiatin to achieve the common good.
The cultural entry deals with societies that allow minority groups to maintain their unique culture.
That is different from the idea that all social arrangements are equally valid despite their content.
That was the point I was trying to make.
October 2, 2011 at 2:31 pm
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